“One of the ways to de-risk your transition is to look at the emotional ups and downs of running a business. It is a rollercoaster ride. And you want to be prepared for that.”
It may not always be the reason, but many who start a side-hustle hope to be able to leave their day-job one day. The “when” is often driven by how much they’ve been able to grow the side-hustle and their best projection of continued growth. But there is always a risk to giving up a stable salary.
Today, we are talking about minimizing the risks — especially the financial ones — when we move from a traditional job to a freelance career or self-employment.
My guest for this episode is Matt Baker, a money strategist and business coach who’s passionate about helping entrepreneurs solve their most challenging problems. As VP of Corporate Strategy and International Expansion at FreshBooks, he helps millions of self-employed pros grow their businesses and get paid faster.
Highlights of Episode 120
- The results of FreshBooks 2019 Annual Self-Employment Report
- Specific steps you can take to de-risk your transition to self-employment
- Effective ways to price your services
- The mindset for successfully transitioning to self-employment
- Processes to overcome initial obstacles faced by new business owners or first-time freelancers
Mentioned in this episode
- FreshBooks 2019 Self-Employment Report
- Small Giants by Bo Burlingham*
- Matt Baker on Twitter
- The Second Breaks Newsletter (see below)
Lou Blaser: Matt Baker, welcome to Second Breaks. Thank you so much for joining me
Matt Baker: Lou. Thank you. I’m excited to be here.
LB: We have been running a series around side hustles on the podcast. We’ve been talking about the idea of having a side gig or a moonlighting gig on the side of your regular nine to five. One of the things that I have been hearing from listeners is this idea that starting a side hustle is great and a lot of them are doing that because the idea of flexibility and freedom down the line is good. So, they are willing to start a side hustle, but there is a risk that they can’t get out of their minds. The risks associated with leaving a “stable” salary where I expect my twice a month salary and moving into self-employment sounds very risky. From your perspective, are there ways to minimize this risk that’s associated with moving to self-employment?
MB: Yeah, I think it’s a great question. I think risk — and the fear that comes out of some of that risk — is really a big barrier for a lot of folks. We do an annual study at FreshBooks called the Self Employed in America Report. And we try to survey through the study, thousands of Americans and get inside the psychology and the understanding of their why. How interested are you in becoming self-employed in some way, like a side hustle or a moonlighter? And if you want to, why haven’t you done it? And we try to understand that.
By the way, I love the use of the word moonlighter because it helps people understand that this is over-and-above your job a lot of times, which is a big commitment. And so, you want to set yourself up for success. Anyhow, when we did the study and we looked at the risks that people face, we’ve broken those into hard barriers and soft barriers.
Hard barriers are things like, I don’t know if I have enough cash to invest to get started in this business idea I have. Or, you know what, I need some more training still. Maybe I want to be a photographer or a graphic designer or a tradesman, but I just don’t have the requisite skillset yet. I need to do a little bit more training. Or even somebody saying, for instance, I have health benefits today. I’m really concerned about what happens tomorrow if I don’t have those health benefits. So those are examples of the hard barriers. And they are real challenges that people face.
And then more on the softer side we hear is concern about something like inconsistent income. I often call it lumpy income. It’s this idea that you’re not going to have a paycheck every two weeks or once a month. And it’s the exact same amount almost every time like you do with a traditional job. There’s worry about earning less, which of course it is a risk if you don’t have an understanding of how you’re going to build your pipeline of clients or your book of clients.
Also, some softer barriers were maybe I need a business plan, maybe I need to get a little stronger about the idea that I have. Or I have to finish some stuff at my current job before I make the leap. So that gives us a bucket of eight or 10 core risks that people are identifying.
So back to your question, what do you do about all that at the end of the day? I think practically you can just ask yourself three or four questions to try to gain enough confidence. One is, do I have enough funding to get my business off the ground? And if the answer is yes, then you can at least feel more confident. And if the answer is no there’s probably a little bit of exercise. Well, how much is needed and what do I have today? Is there a gap? And then in your mind, you can get going and start it at the end of the year. And you have some goals at least to make it a little bit more programmatic. So anyway, the funding’s a good one.
Another one is to think about taxes and benefits. Just understanding that when you get paid as a side hustle or self-employed in any way, typically not all that money is going to be yours. You know, 30% of it is going to go to the government. So just thinking through and planning about that.
The other one we mentioned was having a business plan. That’s a great way to de-risk. Go through and look through the life cycle and the stages of your business. Do I understand how I’m going to work a client through? Or how I’m going to get new clients or how do I need help and how am I going to get to contractors or partners to help with this?
And then, the last one I think that’s really interesting when de-risking is just taking a look at the emotional ups and downs of running a business. You can do that by talking to other people that have already done it. It’s such an interesting space because this is where it gets into the psychology of it.
But what we find in our data is that for the people who make the switch and really do self-employment, they have absolutely no interest in going back. And so the rewards are there from all indications that I can see. But you’ve got to make it to the other, so to speak. And it can be really tough at the beginning. It can be not consistently positive the way that we talked about things like lumpy income. So there’s definitely a roller coaster that you have to set yourself up for. And like I said, it feels like if you can make it work and you can get to the other side and you are in fact going to feel more fulfilled about your career.
But it’s not a straight line so to speak. From here to there. There are going to be challenges. You’ll ultimately have to wear every hat for your business at some point. It’s such a learning curve. But you have to feel like you’re in a space where you’re ready to do it.
Maybe one other example I’ll give is just this idea of, am I going to be lonely? That’s also a big concern for people. And what we found in our research is that way more people think they’re going to be lonely than they actually feel lonely once they do it. But that underscores this idea that it’s a risk and it’s a concern. And so, one way of de-risking it is maybe thinking about how you would get around it. You could think about what you are going to do to network or maybe you work out of a coworking space. Anyhow, just uncovering a lot of these risks is how I think is the best way to start de-risking them.
LB: About the FreshBooks survey, do you do it annually?
MB: Yeah, we’ve done three now. And then what we tried to do is also then just try to break out some pieces of it and do a little bit deeper. We try to go a little bit deeper into something like gender. How are women embracing self-employment and what’s it like versus the average? Or we’ll look at something like the generation. Millennials are now the largest part of, but we’ve also looked at baby boomers for instance. There are way more people self-employed that are baby boomers than people realize because a lot of the popular media is focused on the millennial who’s doing a side hustle and maybe setting up an eCommerce store or something like that. It’s just often what you hear more frequently.
LB: Do you guys publish the results of the survey? Or is it for internal purposes only?
MB: Yeah, we do publish them. If you go to freshbooks.com or you search for the FreshBooks annual report, you absolutely will find it. You can find all three if you’d like as well as some of those additional reports that I mentioned.
LB: Oh, perfect. I’m definitely going to check that out. I don’t know if there has been any sort of shifts in trends that you’ve noticed. You talked about the generational interest in self-employment. Maybe it’s just my bias because of what I’m seeing. But a lot of talk is focused on how the younger generation is all about the gig economy. Are you noticing that more of the Gen Xers and the younger boomers are embracing this too?
MB: If I take a step back and think, well, what are the key trends that I saw in the report and how can I answer a question around if baby boomers are embracing self-employment and side hustles and things of that nature? I would say absolutely. In fact, the way that I’ve viewed the report is that baby boomers have been doing this well before it was called the side hustle. There’s a portion of all generations that finds a lot more worth and reward in working for themselves as opposed to working for it.
I do think that the stigma or the perception of working for yourself has improved. I have spoken to a lot of people that are in the older generations that said being a freelancer was looked down upon more so in the past than it is today. Today, if I want to work for myself, it’s viewed as empowering. And it helps me be autonomous and it’s a bit of independence. Whereas in the past it would be sometimes viewed as, Oh, well I guess they couldn’t get a traditional job. So now they’re out working side hustles. We definitely see that baby boomers on average earn more because they’ve been doing it longer and they’ve actually built much more sustainable businesses. There are some that are getting pushed into it as they get older, but a lot of the people that are in self-employment have been there for a long time.
To highlight a few other things that I thought were really interesting, one thing is around the people who’ve made the switch, how they don’t want to go back. That’s been consistent every year. That’s why I feel confident in talking about it that way. We definitely have seen the age shift downward. So we see more millennials.
We’ve also seen the percentage who have a college degree going down. And that’s an indication I think that maybe it’s just growing overall, so it’s a larger pool of people moving into it. So it just kind of de-averages it. Or a lot of the fields and professions that people are doing when they’re working for themselves no longer require an undergraduate degree. Because a lot of these jobs are new. A lot of these jobs didn’t exist five years ago. And let’s say you’re a social media strategist. Or an SEO expert. I’m not saying education is bad at all. But a college education is probably not what determines whether or not you’re a good SEO specialist. Education gives you a lot of critical and analytical thinking. So, I personally am glad that I went to university. But the point is we’re definitely seeing that shift down. So there are some interesting trend trends in there for sure.
LB: For somebody who’s always been employed and who’s thinking of, maybe I want to parlay my love and my interest in photography and be a freelance photographer or whatever it is. The typical mathematical calculation that goes into my mind is how many hours can I work? Or how many clients can I get times I how much the rate per hour. And so, if I want to earn $5,000 from my side gig, I have to have X number of clients or charge X dollars per hour. That’s a typical calculation. And so I just was wondering, is there another way of approaching that calculation other than hours times hourly rate?
MB: Yeah. Lou, I love the question, and I think this space is fascinating, particularly because it’s also a mindset piece. I think we all understand what an hourly rate is. We also all understand what an annual income is. So, if I were to say, what does the photographer make? Well, you’re probably going to tell me, Oh, they make this much an hour, or you could expect to make approximately this much per year. Those are things that are out there in terms of how we can understand one profession to another or one client to another. Those are not necessarily bad and they’re always going to be helpful to benchmark and to judge how you’re doing. But absolutely I would say you want to find a way to get out of having a set rate per hour.
Then you just work against that. Otherwise, you’ll always be at a ceiling. And in fact, that’s treating yourself a bit like a traditional employee that has a fixed rate and or a fixed salary. A lot of people who are employees, they have a salary based on 40 hours, but they work way more than 40 hours. So in fact, per hour, they’re making less than their contract says they should. So, when you get the opportunity to move into self-employment or take a side hustle, this is an opportunity to change your mindset and think about it differently. And in particular, the best way that I like to think about it is as I was mentioning, when you’re getting paid per hour, that’s more of a traditional job.
I grew up in the Midwest with a lot of automotive factories around. People would punch the clock and they’d get paid per hour and they’d work extra hours. Cause maybe you got time and a half but you were always limited by how much you could work. You have to sleep a little bit every day, right? And you can’t just work, work, work.
From that what I’ve heard from and seen, the strongest way to break away from that is to flip the mindset around and think about the value you’re providing to your clients. A great example is like a website design or website conversion business. If you have a website that’s meaning to bring in business, you can baseline how much business is coming in today. And then after the website project, how much business is coming in tomorrow or three months away, whatever the project takes. But the point is, that is a way that you could understand some value. Maybe you’ve tripled the leads coming into this business because of the project that you’ve done and that is worth way more than whatever you would charge per hour.
And the last thing I’ll say is once you unlock that, I’m also not suggesting that you understand the value and then you price it so that you get all that value. It’s meant to be a win-win, right? I think what happens is if you’re just charging per hour, really, it’s your clients that are winning more than you. Because you’re not sharing any of the upside and the value that you’re creating and you’re creating a ton of value when you go out and work for yourself.
And so, you want to get to a point where it’s a win-win. And then I think you also get a lot more experience in how to price effectively and how to choose your clients. It kind of steamrolls from there and you are able to build a stronger business. That’s why it’s hard to scale for people who are using a platform that sets the price for them.
For instance, another constituency that’s always in the news is things like ride-sharing drivers, Uber, Lyft or others. But that system sets the price for them. So, you get part of the independence of a side hustle because you get to choose your hours and you get to choose where you work, but you don’t get to set the price. You don’t get to own the client relationship. It’s a great way to test what it’s like to work on the side. From talking to the people that have really grown their independent income, you need the ability to have pricing control. And that’s why it’s also so important to move away from just selling on a fixed hourly rate for perpetuity.
LB: I love the way that you phrased that, and I wrote it down ¬ the value that you’re providing to your clients. Which is so very different from this feel-good thing that I sometimes see on the internet, which annoys me. This whole, “price what you’re worth”. How is that helpful? I mean that is not very helpful. Have you heard that advice?
MB: Yeah. It’s funny too because I don’t know exactly the instances that you’ve seen. But to my mind, they’re probably trying to get up the same thing. That would be my guess. But then, how do you know what you’re worth? That’s oftentimes an internal feeling. What am I worth? But what I would say from the folks that I’ve seen that are the strongest here is that it’s not an internal feeling of what am I worth. Cause that would just be instead of saying $100 an hour, I’m worth $300 an hour. It’s an intrinsic sort of thing.
Whereas I think if you flip it around and you say, what is it worth to my clients, then you can actually think about the value. You can actually do some math and understand what that value is. And then, you get an idea of what your time’s worth or what your projects are worth.
So anyway, to my mind, it’s kinda hunting at the in the same space but you want to definitely look outward to figure out the value. The market drives the value in a lot of cases as well. So all that outward look is certainly super important. And if I could put one plugin for the one skill that I’ve seen makes the biggest difference between people who succeed in self-employment and people who don’t, it’s the ability to go out and get your own clients, that pipeline piece. We see that people typically spend maybe 20% of their time doing that. So it doesn’t have to be 80% of your time or anything like that, but your ability to look outward to find a client. A lot of that finding a client is understanding what do they need. And then once you understand what they need, then you’re halfway there to understanding, okay, what value am I going to bring to them? And then how can I price this, this, this project or this work and my services properly?
LB: A lot of times, I hear people start with something love and then they would typically try to monetize the thing that they love to do. Say I love to take photographs on the side, so I’m going to try to be a photographer, right? I’m going to try to monetize this. I’m going to try to see if I can earn money out of that thing that I love to do. And so people think that once they start the side hustle, that that’s what they’re going to do. But actually a good percentage of the time is looking for clients, building that pipeline. And without that, you’re not going to be able to do the thing that you love to do. So I’m so glad that you mentioned that as well, which actually also ties to something that you had said earlier, which I also wanted to go back to.
Earlier you said something about the emotional ups and downs that happen when someone transitions to self-employment. Speaking from experience, because I had a 20-year corporate career before I did my self-employment thing. I did not think of the emotional ups and downs. I was not at all prepared for that. I was not at all thinking that there were going to be ups and downs. I have a plan, this is the plan, very linear, that kind of stuff. And the touchy-feely things and emotional things, I thought those were not an issue. I can handle those. And of course, that wasn’t the case. And the mindset for self-employment is so different from corporate employment. I was wondering what you’ve seen and what are mindset traps maybe that people fall into when they switch, when they transition?
MB: Yeah. In fact, maybe the best way to answer that one, it’s a great way to think about, okay, what am I really getting into and what am I setting myself up for? And having a full comprehension. It’s just this idea that you want to have eyes wide open when you go into a new situation. So one of the things that we try to do is understand what are expectations versus what’s reality? What do I think my life is going to be like when I move from a traditional job to being independent? So you might get started with a side hustle, maybe your goal initially is just to augment income. But if it goes well, you’d like to do that full time instead of a traditional job.
So, we try to say, well, what are your expectations? Are you going to work harder? Are you going to have less stress so you can have more of a work-life balance? Are you going to earn more money? Are you going to have more career certainty? Are you going to be healthier? Are you going to be lonelier? We ask people their expectations for all those things. And then we talk to the people who made the switch and say, okay, what’s the reality? By and large, it does align. But it’s interesting that it may be in the right direction, but there are cases when it’s higher or lower. So an example would be, we find that people generally don’t work as hard as they think they’re going to.
It’s like 75% are like, Oh, I’m absolutely going to work harder. That’s the expectation. And then instead of 75%, maybe only 60% actually say they work harder. Now that’s still more than half and it’s still lots of people. But it’s just not necessarily as strong as the expectation. Same thing with stress. People generally say I’m going to do this and I’m going to have less stress, but fewer people say, Oh, I actually have less stress. And that’s probably back to the thing we were talking about before where you wear so many hats. You’d probably feel like, you’re going to have some stress in this role. Hopefully, it’s good stress and it’s exciting in a way as opposed to just negative stress.
The other thing that people generally say is, I’m going to be healthier. In reality, a lot more than half are still saying they’re going to be healthier, but it’s not as many as who said so. So I do think that that comes with the emotional side of things. Ultimately once you get there, you come in with a set of expectations. We’re averaging those expectations. So, there’s going to be outliers as well, but what you get is probably not 100% aligned to your expectations. And I think that’s part of what creates the ups and downs.
I think on average things are moving that way. But loneliness is one of the greatest ones where statistically four out of 10 are saying, absolutely, I’m going to be lonelier when I do this. But then, in reality, only two out of 10 say that they’re actually lonelier. And it’s probably, cause once you get the other side, you realize, well, there are still lots of relationships out there for me. I may be working from home or I may be doing this thing on the side, but I’m not locked in a room all day.
Anyhow, I think there’s a ton of interesting learnings there and we’ll continue to monitor and see how it changes. The last one to touch on is that the expectation that you’re going to make more money is often high. If you’ve ever been in a classroom where you’re graded on a curve and a curve makes the grades spaced out. If you ask the people up front, raise your hand if you think you’re going to get an A in the class, way more people are going to raise their hand than there’s actually space on the curve. It’s one of those things where you just have a set of expectations and then reality doesn’t always work or shake out that way. So, it’s that spirit of just going in eyes wide open.
LB: I should totally complete this survey of yours next time you run it because I think I’m one of your outliers. Like, I was laughing here when you were talking about the loneliness factor. Because as an example I’m an introvert. And so, when I started doing this thing, I basically work from home 80% of the time. I spent a lot of time online like this, talking online via the camera and stuff like that. And I said, Oh my God, this is going to be perfect for me. I’m an introvert. This is brilliant. You know what? I was so surprised by the sixth month or so, I was feeling lonely And I said, if I do not deliberately create new relationships, my circle is going to implode very quickly. That’s one of the things that I said I was totally unprepared for. A lot of the emotional ups and downs I was totally unprepared for.
I wanted to also touch on something you said, which is another thing that is sort of impossible to understand or grapple with when you are an employee. This whole idea that you can work less and make more money. Part of it is the whole hours times rate thing that we talked about before. But this is beyond that. This whole idea that we can work less and make money is so anathema to what we know about work. And so how do we grapple with that idea? How do we think about that?
MB: Yeah. Yeah. So great, great, great. It’s just like how do you, how, yeah, how, how do you work less and make more? I think part of the start, the thing I would start with too is part, partly there’s a work ethic that is a part of that conversation that makes it hard because if you work less, you immediately start to feel like maybe you’re not doing enough. And that the initial thing that I think starts to erode the mindset there is there’s this feeling when you go out and you doing something yourself, you want to give it your all and you want to work hard. And so, you’re not going to start something and say, you know what, I’m only going to work half time, but I expect it to be great. You sort of expect it, you’re going to work a lot.
MB: So this idea of pulling back on the time is definitely at odds with that a little bit. But if I put that aside for a moment and say the spirit of it is let’s not work excessively so much that it detracts from the rest of your life. Because in the spirit of work and life integration, you don’t want to be a workaholic when you have other commitments in your life. And so, the example for me is back to what we were talking about before about breaking out of the hourly rate struggle. Thinking about the value that we talked about, but also you could even think of it at, at a project level. When you are signing up to do a project for a client you have an opportunity there to price that project as a valuable product regardless of how much time is work.
MB: Your client wants to know that you worked hard, but they don’t. Ultimately, your client is not going to care at the highest level. They’re not going to care if you did it in 10 hours or a hundred hours. So long as they perceive that you did high-quality work and it’s a value to them. And so I don’t think you have to expose that. In fact, in some ways when you charge hourly, it creates a misalignment with your client because you’re then incentivized to work more hours because you want to earn, earn more and they don’t necessarily want that. a client would want you to get it done as fast as you can get it done typically. And so you can break away from that with the project piece. And then what’s interesting too sometimes is it once you put a price tag on a project internally, you can always ask yourself, it’s a great budgeting exercise.
MB: How, how long do I think this is going to take? And then you can say, okay, what does that mean? Like effectively as a cost per hour or a price per hour. And so I wouldn’t recommend moving away from the idea entirely. It’s always good to come back and just understand what your rates are because that’s what, you can benchmark out in the market, but, but I think, to lead with the rate to your client is the thing that gets you stuck in the hourly piece. And you might find that when you do that math, Hey, I didn’t put, I didn’t, I didn’t charge enough for this project. Or you might really surprise yourself and say, wow, I’ve actually really increased my prices more than I thought I could because I moved to this world in which I’m charging for a project price that has a certain value attached to it. So that’s what I tend to think about. So in some ways, instead of just saying, work less, make more, you can say, how do I work, work, work what I think I’m going to work but make more doing it. That’s another way of sort of unlocking the thinking.
LB: Yeah. And also, I suppose if you like, so for example, if you’re a web designer, maybe the first couple of projects they see you 12 hours, but maybe by the fifth or the seventh project, it’ll take you eight or six hours because you’ve gained some efficiencies or you’ve learned how to do it faster and things like that. So and it doesn’t, to your point, just the fact that you’re doing it now faster doesn’t mean that you should earn less because you’re now doing it seven hours instead of 15.
MB: Yeah. If I just jumped in on that, that that is 1000% correct. Like why, why would your improvements and your job lead to you making less? Right. And so that’s why you got to move out of the time billing long-term. Absolutely.
LB: All right. So let’s talk a little bit about FreshBooks. For the folks who are listening who do not know what FreshBooks is, could you talk a little bit about what it is exactly who it’s for and what does it do?
MB: Yeah. FreshBooks exists to help people who work for themselves. And so that is entirely our market. We have a tool that allows you to invoice and do accounting when you work for yourself. And this gets to the point of, it’s often time-consuming. It’s often hard to take care of billing. And you want to get paid as fast as you can. And so what we’re trying to do is help you save time, look professional and get paid through a system that can automate as much of it as possible. And as I said, you were a bunch of hats. When you do your business, you want to focus on your business, you want to be focused on talking to your clients, serving your clients. The last thing you want to do is be focused on using Word or Excel to create an invoice template and, re-save that every time and send it and collect, collect checks or deal with all of that sort of banking.
MB: And so we, we try to make that as easy as we can for you. And then also provide some accounting reports that you get if you use the service. And there’s a couple of things in there that’s really interesting. If you’re someone who’s sent out an invoice and then felt that people aren’t paying you on time. And so we put some processes in place where we send payment reminders to the clients so that they pay on time and there are little things in there that once you, once you’ve experienced what it’s like to chase an invoice payment, you know you don’t want to do that again. Right. So, it’s great to find a system like this. And anyhow, that’s what FreshBooks does.
That’s why we exist and we certainly have lots of people that are moonlighters or side hustlers as we talked about all the way up to, people who, who make it full time by themselves or now they’re running a from an agency or consultancy or some type of multi-person business. But they’re doing it themselves. And so a lot of tools that are out there, a lot of them aren’t traditionally built for small businesses or self-employed. And that’s what we’re trying to do.
LB: Yeah. So is it appropriate to say it’s almost like outsourcing your bookkeeping or your accounting hat? Is that appropriate?
MB: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it’s a software piece. There are services, there are, partners and services on top of it if you really want, someone that to physically do it. But otherwise, it’s meant for you to be able to use it with a ton of automation. And so, yeah, you can say FreshBooks is doing your billing or FreshBooks is doing your accounting. That’s, that’s absolutely a great way to think about it.
LB: All right. So, Matt, just a couple more questions before I let you go. Although I don’t want to because I love this conversation that we’re having, but two more questions. Is there a book that you could recommend that’s made an impact on you and your career?
MB: I’m a big fan of Small Giants by Bo Burlingham. The old concept of a small giant is this idea that you can be great even if you don’t even if you aren’t big or it’s better to be great than big, let’s call it that. And so he profiles a bunch of companies that have decided to just be such a best in class or just be such a leader in their space, but not necessarily grow and try to take over the world or the country, or the state in terms of, franchises and everything else. So, there’s a lot of great companies there that are small companies. If they’re being compared to the Googles or the Amazons or the McDonald’s of the world, any of these, but they’re still doing something that is absolutely fantastic and they’re choosing to be great rather than just big.
MB: So anyway, he goes through a bunch of them and it’s, it’s really inspiring and I think, with FreshBooks, as a bit of an underdog in this space of trying to serve people with software, it resonates for us. It’s helped me a lot, but I think it also has a lot of value to anyone who’s trying to start their own business. Because out of the gate, you definitely, when you’re planning you, you definitely want to say, how am I going to be great? You want to answer that question before you say, how am I going to get bigger? that’s, that’s the spirit of it. And so that’s been hugely important for me.
LB: Well that is definitely going to get added to my list of Kindle reads. Thank you for that recommendation. And then lastly, Matt, where can we find you or follow you online?
MB: Oh, great. So, if you go to freshbooks.com I’m on there. As well as all the other information that we talked about. And I’m on Twitter @mbakerson. Feel free to reach me anytime. That would be wonderful.
LB: Cool beans. All right, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing all your insights and your mad skills around this topic. Thank you
MB: Lou. I appreciate it. Have a good one. Thank you.
A Couple More Things
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